To view this notification widget you need to have JavaScript enabled. This notification widget was easily created with NotifySnack.

Interview with Dori Friend of SEO Nitro

For the last year or so, the SEO world has been in chaos. So I believe getting as many valid opinions on the state of search engine optimization is worthwhile.

One of the people I reached out to for opinions is Dori Friend of SEO Nitro.

Dori’s been one of the go-to girls of SEO for at least a decade. She’s run several top-level private workshops, built SEO software, and is behind several blog networks including SEO Nitro, one of the most exclusive closed-door link networks available.  So I really appreciate her taking the time to share her opinions on SEO now in 2012 and in the future.

This interview will explain top mistakes small business owners make when it comes to getting high rankings, her favorite link building methods post Panda/Penguin, and thoughts on what to make of unnatural link warnings.

As you read, keep a few things in mind:

  • Dori is definitely an authority in SEO. Since Google hasn’t let anyone in on what’s going on (especially in regards to backlinking and unnatural link warnings) her opinion is valuable.
  • As the creator of the largest blog networks man and woman has ever seen, she’s got access to more data than anyone I know.

If you’re a small business owner struggling to figure out your next step for getting (or re-gaining) high rankings, then gathering information from the top minds in SEO makes sense.

Unfortunately Google really isn’t giving us answers.

In fact their motto seems to be right along the lines of a saying by the Spanish painter Salvador Dali, “What is important is to spread confusion, not eliminate it.”

If we’ve learned anything it’s that we can’t expect answers from them.  Like anything in business, you’ll have to make your own decisions, but gathering data and researching first is the best step for putting a strategy together. From there it’s wise to figure out what your threshold for risk is before you take the plunge.

Read on and feel free to leave your comments at the end.

Interview with Dori Friend 

Lisa: I know you’ve been doing SEO for a long time, exactly when did you first get started running an online business?

Dori: I’ve been online since 93’ and my first email address was dori.friend@applelink.com which was Apple Computer’s internal email network (I use to work for them). My FIRST online business was in 2000 and it was called TheLogoGuru.com but I got so enamored with Internet Marketing after attending an industry seminar in 2001 I just drifted away from that business and went head first into SEO.

Although, Logo Design has now become a HUGE online market so I always keep meaning to go BACK into it, but just haven’t found the time yet.

Lisa: If you’re willing to share it, what was the first business idea you put together?

Dori: Back in 1985 when the MAC came out (and yes that dates me!) I was heavily into HyperCard, which was the FIRST piece of software that used “hyperlinks.” (can you imagine?) I created a product called MACINFO.

It was just a directory of Macintosh products of the day but the novel thing was that you could “link” and “jump” around and get to information you wanted, so it was non-linear, which WAS pretty novel at the time!

Two MORE novel things about that that first product ..

1) I was sent a cease and desist letter for using “hyperlinks” by the guy who had the patent on it (Apple squashed that pretty quick) and,

2) at the first HyperCard conference where I was showing my wares, my booth was next to the guys who did a pretty cool animated product that eventually turned into the best selling game “Mist!”

Lisa: Did you start out with SEO right away as your favorite source of traffic?

Dori: Actually, I think I started out buying PPC traffic for TheLogoGuru, But in 2002 I had gotten heavily into SEO with a buddy of mine. Together, we created a piece of software that let us put sites and content up in MASS.

This is in the day when on-page optimization was all you needed, so it was typical for us to put up 50k page sites and crank in long tail traffic in hordes! We had been doing well with affiliate stuff at Commission Junction but when Adsense came to town, it quadrupled our income almost overnight and we dance a jig for 3 years on that business model! ;-)

So yeah, you could say SEO was my favorite source of traffic right from the start. J

Lisa: Compared to what getting top rankings were like when you first got started, what do you see as the biggest changes to SEO over the last decade?

Dori: Wow, well, the biggest “change(s)” I have seen in that last decade have all happened in the last 6 months! I mean, things are always changing, SEO has always been a moving target even on a good day, but the last 6 months have been just horrendously HUGE. But since the infamous “Florida” update, things changed at a lower pace then what has just happened to the industry.

And those gosh awful “un-natural link notices!” Oye!

It is almost like we are turning full circle back to 2003-04 where on-page optimization counts as much as incoming links.

From about 2007 to six months ago, I didn’t give a squat about ANYTHING on-page! I could rank what I wanted just by using inbound links.

Even, if there was NO content on the page let alone “quality” content! (that by the way was another HUGE myth Google had everyone chasing for years, that content was king, cause back then in SEO, LINKS were KING, period! ) And to some extent they still are, but Google has really up’ed their game so now there is an ever-increasing amount of variables that we didn’t seem to have to pay as much attention to back then. And, on-page is back.

I had always paid attention to title tags, but now we have to really pay attention to ad to content ratios, bounce rate, time on site, inner linking over optimization and an entire line up of Panda disqualifiers.

Off-page, we are calculating things like “link density” and “referral ratios” for the first time. This is stuff we (or I should say “I”) would never give the time of day before.

Lisa: Do you have any funny stories of ranking? Like a site you built that should have never ranked, but was getting out-of-control awesome rankings in the search engines? Would you care to share what top rankings for a particular key phrase or phrases have meant to you in terms of money?

Dori: I have some GREAT ones right now!! But unfortunately I can’t share with your reader’s cause the data is reserved for my workshop attendees in September, but I will say this, it goes against, everything Google says is true. Crazy insane stuff even “I” didn’t believe until I saw it with my own eyes!

But, as far as rankings for super killer keywords go?

I have had my share of page one monster terms, like “blinds,” “payday loans,”  “cover letter,” “area rugs,” “slipcovers,” “weight loss,” etc.. But it is my SeoNitro clients that REALLY hit them and of course I can’t share those, but I do have a funny story about one that a customer was trying to hit for a killer keyword.

It was for the keyword “Toner.”

I was sitting at the bar (which I do) at one of the industry events and was talking to this guy next to me and he asked me my name and I said, Dori. He then said, “oh, do you know a gal named Dori Friend?” and I said, “well as a matter of fact.. I do.”

He then preceded to give me a 30 minute dissertation on Dori Friend’s system SeoNitro and how it didn’t get his site to page one for “Toner” after a couple of months and so he angrily quit and signed up with Brian Horn (whom by the way is actually a friend of mine, in my seo mastermind group and will be speaking at my event in September) and that Brian was SO amazing he ranked his site on page one in the matter of weeks.

I listened to EVERYTHING he had to say and took it ALL in! I mean how often to you get a customer’s viewpoint like that, it was SO unfiltered. Remember, we were AT the bar and this guy was drinking!

And then, I paused and looked at him, and I said, “You DO know I AM Dori Friend right?” And, he turned 50 shades of purple!! It was actually pretty funny. He really didn’t put together that I was THAT Dori!  He felt SO bad for saying all the things he said about me not knowing it was me but I just thanked him. It was actually the best “take home” from that event for me!

Then later, I then went up to Brian and ask him how did he rank that guy so fast for “toner” and he said, “Not much.. you had already done all the heavily lifting for me!”

And THAT is SEO for ya! Ya win some, ya lose some!

Lisa: It seems to me that Google is really learning toward brands, almost every health search I do anymore has webmd and the mayoclinic near the top. Do you think there’s still room for the little guys (and girls)? And if so what’s the best strategy for them?

Dori: Yeah, when this all started, SEO gave the little guy a chance to compete and more often out compete the BIG Corporations. And THAT is what really made SEO so fun and exciting!  For the first time, small business were able to show up on the national level and bring in customers from all over the world.

It totally gave the middle class a bump and I don’t understand how Eric Schmidt, (Google’s CEO) can go on record for “being” for small businesses, when it is obvious that they just kicked small business’s teeth in!

Even Google’s poster child for Adsense, “AsktheBuilder.com” has come out to say Google’s changes have nearly destroyed their business. And these are the guys Google gave us as a THE example for a great Adsense Model.

So, room for the little guy?

Yes, I believe so. We just have to “look” like the big guy now. Remember, GoogleBot is still just a spider sending back information to the mother-ship. So, the game is the same as it always has been, to feed the BOT whatever flavor of the day it is.

Lisa: What do you think are the top mistakes small business owners are making when it comes to getting high rankings?

Dori: Right now it is, in no particular order..

  • wasting time taking links down because they got an un-natural linking notice
  • linking “just” to their homepage
  • linking with the same anchor text over and over again (over optimization on exact match terms)
  • not linking to their site using their Brand and URL in the anchor text
  • not linking to their inner pages (which coincides to many just to home page)
  • not paying attention to on-page optimization (never thought I would be saying THAT!)
  • listening to Google

Lisa: What are your top 3 methods for getting links?

Dori:

  • Blog Networks (of course)
  • Press Releases (which  FYI for the exception of about 145 major news pick-ups you can get with the $200 paid release at PRWeb, news sites are really just glorified blog networks)
  • Fiverr

Lisa: You’re so tapped into the SEO industry; I bet you can give some pretty good predictions.  Where do you see the SEO industry in 2 years?

Dori: Well I don’t know if you can listen to me on predictions cause I would of never in a million years predicted the things Google has just done to the industry in such a short amount of time. But, ok, I will give it a stab.

I think by this time next year the SEO industry will have caught up with the changes that have occurred in the last 6 months and once again have a standard “best practices” that work and work well again. We are coming really close to this already through all the testing we have been doing.

Then give it anther year to hit the two year mark and Google will probably do another switcheroo on us!

And at the same time, I think more emphasis will be placed on multiple methods of generating free traffic with social media being at the forefront of that.

Lisa: What about 5 years?

Dori: I hope we will see the emergence of another significant search engine (or multiple) diluting Google’s current monopoly and ability to somewhat “control” the industry.

But Bing/Yahoo is slowly increasing in market share and then there the development of verticals like YouTube and Facebook. We don’t really see them so much as “search engines” now, but YouTube already generates a TON of free traffic from internal keyword searches for those who are ranking “just” in YouTube, so I think this is one of the types of venue of free traffic I mentioned above we will be seeing more SEO attention placed on.

Lisa: What are your predictions for Google Plus? Is it worth the typical small business owner’s time to get started on it or will it fizzle out?

Dori: The jury is still out.

But, right NOW, I see more of a SEO factor to ranking on Google with Facebook shares and likes. And, that could change, that is just at THIS moment in time a TON of Google Plus’s seems to be over optimizing a bit so I wouldn’t go hog wild on getting them but instead focus Facebook shares and likes and probably more on shares.

Lisa: Google will supposedly come out with a link disavow tool.  If so are you going to suggest people who’ve gotten unnatural links warnings to use it sparingly or just disavow pretty much everything linking back to their site?

Dori: Unless we have data that shows us that a webmaster regaining their rankings or show “any” type of improvement at all from using such a tool, I will say it’s a waste of time and don’t bother with it.

Now if such a tool does come out, we WILL test it and test it to get our own data, and if I have to eat crow on the above statement, I will.

I just don’t put much credence into they un-natural linking hype. I just HAMMERED a site in one of my test using ONLY links from de-indexed blogs and I didn’t even GET the notice!! Talk about un-natural linking!! So, until Google becomes more transparent to what that actually means, everyone who is reacting is shooting in the dark.

Lisa: Do you trust what Matt Cutts says?

Dori: Trust? Hmm. Let’s say this, I trust that he has Google’s back (of course) and tows the line with industry rhetoric that places the fear of you know who into webmasters and plays them like a fiddle. Do I believe ANYTHING that comes out of his mouth? Mostly no.

And like I said above, I have data that I would just LOVE to share with your readers, (but can’t) that goes directly against what Google and Matt Cutts tell us.

So, I will say this, learn how to read between the lines and “really,” only listen to test results rather then hear-say, EVEN (or ESPECIALLY) when it comes from the mother ship as THEY, like the rest of us, are looking out for numero uno. So unless you are a Google share holder (and a couple of my retired friends are!) then that is NOT you, and is certainly not me. So test everything or become friends with people that DO.

And let me rant for a moment if you will.

Google was a start-up that depended on the grassroots efforts for publicity back in the day. They courted the SEO Professional. And it was the SEO Professional that in-part has been responsible for Google’s success. We WERE the grassroots army that shouted from the rooftops to all offline business to GET ONLINE. Not only did we educate them on SEO we educated them on PPC. WE did that! So for Google to come back and WACK us on the side of the head for continuing to do SEO is, well, incredibly distasteful and heartbreaking.

And for those who think you are “White Hat” and are a Google darling, think again. Except for making your site easier to crawl, ANYTHING you do to try to increase your rankings is considered “manipulating” the search engines and IS very much against Google’s terms and conditions!

So the very nature of SEO itself is now against Google’s terms and conditions!!

In a recent video I watch Matt Cutts say they weren’t against SEO and he then went on to explain the role of a SEO professional from “his” eyes.

What he described was a PPC, Conversion and Marketing expert. Three things I am NOT. Even though PPC is about traffic, it is NOT SEO and “conversion and marketing?” Paaaleese, those two, are NOT SEO!

And even though some SEO Professionals fit into the “Internet Marketing Professional” model and help small businesses out with all of that stuff, most of us JUST DO SEO, which equals going after and getting FREE TRAFFIC AND ORGANIC RANKINGS, plan and simple!

OK, stop me before I break something! ;-)

Lisa: You’ve been a major player in the blog network arena (if not THE top player) and I know there has been a major shake-up. I’m sure you’ve got something cooking now like a better version of a blog network, or maybe even something completely different.  What can we expect to see from you in the future?

Dori: Oh yeah, lots in the popper! And yep, better versions of blog networks OF COURSE, as they are STILL work and they STILL work very well. And actually, since everyone is busy taking “down” their links (which I believe is doing more harm then good for them) we are having an easier time ranking new sites.

I am also building private networks for customers and will probably eventually create a monthly site package so people who can’t afford the pretty big chunk of change it costs to buy the sites for a major network, can grow it gradually.

I also have a super ninja Advanced SEO Workshop happening in September which is actually turning into a major SEO Event.

Because I have most of the guys from my elite SEO Mastermind group (which by the way we all pay $2k a year to be in it, so it isn’t your average popsicle, Perry Belcher, Keith Baxter and Brian Horn put it together and pulled in best of the best in all areas of SEO!) the brain power in the room (and in the bar ;-) is going to be like no other SEO event that has ever been held. I am pretty excited for it!

And last but not least, we are also working on some tools. The first one to come out will be http://www.linkdensity.com which I built because “I” needed to know my anchor text link density and not tool was reporting it yet.

It was strange cause I felt something happening with links last year, so I actually had an earlier version of this that I was using last November. But now that it has become industry significant to NOT over-optimize your anchor text link density, I decided to fancy up the tool and release it.

It is still in beta and is still free right now, but probably won’t be for long as it costs a bundle in processing and pulling API information on all those links we are analyzing.

And then after all that, maybe.. I will finally get back into Logo Design. ;-)

About Lisa Parmley

is the founder of BusinessBolts.com and creator of the InlineSEO System, Authority Site Model, and Magnetic Content Series. She started her online publishing company in 2001. Her focus is on helping entrepreneurs grow their online business by making an positive impact.

Comments

  1. Colorado SEO says:

    Lisa, good stuff for sure thanks for sharing. I really like your new site here.

    I’ve been following Dori for a while now and like her style. Is she still running SEO Link Monster?

    Also, I love the part with her “kinda” bashing Matt Cutts .

    • Lisa Parmley says:

      Thanks Cary! I figured the Matt Cutts question would spark something. I know she’s closed down some of her link networks for the time being. I’m not sure what the status of SEO Link Monster is.

    • Dori Friend says:

      Yep, still running SEO Links Monster. :-)
      And I am glad I only came off only “kinda” bashing Cutts, cause I am really not an avid flame thrower, but yeah, Lisa hit a nerve with that question! lol

  2. Fred Tappan says:

    Hi Lisa,

    I’m still working as much as I have time on my authority information site model. Thanks for everything and for the free information. I like BusinessBolts.com. If Dori Friend wants to get back into Logo Design, could you tell her that I have LogoDesignAcademy.com for sale and to make me an offer?

    Fred

  3. Sunshine says:

    Hey Lisa,

    It’s been awhile since I’ve read one of these SEO articles but knew it would be a good one based on your recommendation. Dori’s interview didn’t disappoint.

    Hopefully you’ll let us know when her new product is launched.

  4. Matt says:

    Hi Lisa,

    Thanks or sharing this…great info! I`m working through your ASM model course as well. I was just wondering – Is it still working with all the changes at google, or are some sections in need of an update? It’s been awhile since I’ve done much SEO-wise, so I just had to ask. Forgive me if it sounds like a dumb question:)

    Matt

    p.s. Will ASM work for building out and ranking a corporate site as well?

    • Lisa Parmley says:

      Hi Matt,

      Great! The authority site model is for getting traffic from high rankings, links from other sites, and visitor referrals, so it’s not exactly a typical SEO course. The main area of SEO I cover in the course is for on-page optimization and the way I do it I can’t imagine it will ever change. The ways I talk about getting traffic and links are designed to be long-term also. You can use the ASM course for most any type of site as long as you’re OK putting in content on whatever topic you’re covering. I hope that helps … Lisa

  5. Wendy Owen says:

    Hi Lisa

    Dori is great, she just calls it as she sees it. I’m pretty sure she’d have a private bog network on the go somewhere for her clients.
    Congrats on the new site, I hope you have success with it. I can see you place a lot of importance on good content as you put the transcription on this page instead of just a video. – I have your aurthority site course, so that’s how I know :-)
    Wendy

    • Lisa Parmley says:

      Thanks Wendy … yes, I always follow my authority site model course and this site will be no different except I’m trying to do even better for you guys. I think it will be a good example and people can apply what I do here for any other market.

  6. Ken Morgan says:

    Great interview, Lisa! I just read a similar article with forthright views about how we can’t trust what Google says. Your readers may be interested in it: http://source-wave.com/what-100-works-post-penguin/

    I love a good rant!

  7. Ernest says:

    Lisa,
    Until now I was a fan of your authority site model. Are you now diverting from that approach with your new website and getting into “greyhat” SEO? The articles/people one promotes always indicate one’s preferences or thinking in my opinion. Birds of a feather flock together! I have lately picked up a lot of rebellion among leading SEO’s directed towards Google’s dominant position and their supposedly abuse of this position to mislead webmasters to feather their own nest even more, and many of them saying that they experience no penalties with “greyhat” or “blackhat” practices and that it works MUCH better and faster that “king content”. Are you now also joining that group?

    • Lisa Parmley says:

      Hello, I did mention in the email I sent out that I have differing opinions from Dori’s and in the intro that you’ll have to make up your own mind, but if you want to now make a judgement call against me just because I interviewed her then that’s your right.

      I’m not doing any greyhat or blackhat link building at this point, but think it’s interesting her and many of her clients are and they’re not seeing any problems at this point. Are they going to? I hope not, but anything’s possible. She’s heavily varied the anchor text so is that why they’re avoiding problems? Again, you can’t know this until you find out and ask what they’re doing. What about the people who have unnatural link warnings already? How does she advise they handle it? I have my own advice that I’ve been giving people who come to me, but that’s completely new to everyone in the industry so learning what others think makes sense.

      I really like her comment that GoogleBot is still just a spider sending back information. It kind of puts things into perspective. Also, no one really knows where the line is drawn as far as what’s greyhat link building so getting her insights and opinions is very worthwhile.

      Yes there is a lot of rebellion because leading SEO’s are seeing pretty scary things and we don’t like it. We’re the ones people are coming to when they’ve got problems and it’s heartbreaking. So it’s hard to feel OK with the direction Google has taken. I’d like nothing more than for yahoo, bing, and even new ways of searching to gain more popularity.

      At any rate no matter where you stand on the content is king issue, you CAN diversify your traffic by creating great content and getting traffic directly from links on other good sites and referral traffic from your visitors (which in the end will also likely lead to high rankings). That’s what I do and what I recommend because I’ve had the most success doing things that way, but I like hearing other’s opinions instead of being closed-minded. If that’s bad I admit I’m guilty of it and then some.

      • Ernest says:

        Lisa.
        Rereading my comment made me realize that I might have come over as judgmental, when I was honestly looking for some information about any change in your direction from the one you took before. I have a lot of respect for your opinion and think you are doing a stellar job in SEO. The problem is that these days you can read the opinion of two SEO’s and get two opposite views expressed on the same subject. Very confusing! Maybe Google should be blamed for part of that. What is desperately needed is some organization, with proven authority that shows that they know what they do, that can do scientific research and testing of what works and what does not and publish those results. My own results is extremely diverse and confusing. I can do exactly the same thing to different websites and get totally different results. There are also extreme differences in backlinks reported by the different tools on the market. Even Google reports different numbers in their webmaster tools and a Google search. In my opinion the SEO world is in total chaos and we need somebody to step foreward and become a reliable PROVEN authority. Maybe that can be you!

        • Dori Friend says:

          Hi Ernest,

          I am glad you wrote back to Lisa cause I was going to send my “black hat” mob over to defend her! lol ;-)

          Even though I am WAY more aggressive in my SEO methods then she is, there is still a lot of overlap in our SEO beliefs and I TOTALLY agree with her on creating authoritative sites that will last the test of time and generate industry links on it’s own. And sometimes, that is all you need!

          Lisa’s approach is absolute gold! Stick with her!

          cheers,
          Dori

  8. Everyone has their own opinion on what factors come into play with SEO, but being open-minded while learning to adapt is probably the smartest and safest way to keep up with the world of internet marketing. Dori’s insight is great and helps the rest of us put things into perspective.

  9. Jim Hofman says:

    So after all the smoke clears … it appears the best path is and always has been:

    Great, thorough, insightful content + a wide variety of links with varied anchor text.

    Which unless I’m totally off base is exactly what Lisa teaches in Authority Site Model.

    The other big and largely unmentioned factor is time, which obviously no one wants to hear. I’ve been amazed (many time actually) how sites tend to spring to life after 8 months, 12 months, or even longer … as long as there has been some level of consistency with adding content and building links. It may sound outdated but I still use Squidoo lenses, Hub Pages, Blogger blogs and Tumblr to build even more content on my topics and set up a strong linking pattern, i.e. to internal pages. Squidoo and Hub Pages can be good little income streams too.

    • Ernest says:

      JIm, you (and Lisa) has summed it up succinctly! It may take longer time than the shortcuts the “greyhat” and “blackhat” SEO’s recommend, but I would like to think it is longer lasting – and it actually also adds value to people’s experience of the net and makes it a better place. Rob Cubbon of SEO News also puts it very nicely: “SEO, like football, is quite a beautifully simple game.
      1. Create quality content.
      2. Engage in communication and relationships with others in your niche both directly and through social media.
      3. Reach out to other sites with guest posts and collaboration ideas with a view to securing incoming links.
      4. Promote your site and articles with social media, and maybe a tiny bit of web 2.0 and directories, etc., (don’t spend too much time on this).
      5. Go back to creating quality content.
      But let us not forget the one thing that definitely makes a difference also (even Dori had to admit that against her will) and that is on-page optimization, of course!

  10. Chris Webber says:

    I find generateanchors.com very useful to generate a huge list of natural anchor texts.
    It mixes everything pretty well.

  11. It is awesome to see this site is finally getting the attention it
    totally deserves. Keep up the terrific work.

Grab Your Business Bolts Free Membership

Gain access to the tools and training you need for faster results. You'll receive; Quick-Start Checklists, the Newsletter full of tips for starting and growing your business, Important Updates, and Special Offers ...



Share this content!



Speak Your Mind

*


Contact Us | About Us | Affiliate Program | Affiliate Disclaimer | Terms & Conditions | Privacy Policy

Copyright © 2014 Business Bolts Media. All Rights Reserved.